Reducing weight vs. downforce...

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Reducing weight vs. downforce...

Postby seeyalaterrr » Mon Nov 26, 2007 4:11 pm

I'm referring to say a High Ltw wing to add down force vs getting a Carbon fiber trunk and saving the weight plus not having the spoiler weight added to the trunk.

Thoughts? Opinions? Just something I was wondering when deciding if I wanted a high ltw wing or not.
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Re: Reducing weight vs down force...

Postby Patrón » Mon Nov 26, 2007 4:25 pm

seeyalaterrr wrote:I'm referring to say a High Ltw wing to add down force vs getting a Carbon fiber trunk and saving the weight plus not having the spoiler weight added to the trunk.

Thoughts? Opinions? Just something I was wondering when deciding if I wanted a high ltw wing or not.


How about both? Highrise ltw wing and a carbon trunk would be awesome. I love the looks of the highrise.
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Postby Volfinator » Mon Nov 26, 2007 4:39 pm

I hope the highrise LTW will be for track use only. Otherwise it isn't going to do you any good on the street.
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Re: Reducing weight vs down force...

Postby seeyalaterrr » Mon Nov 26, 2007 9:36 pm

Patrón wrote:
seeyalaterrr wrote:I'm referring to say a High Ltw wing to add down force vs getting a Carbon fiber trunk and saving the weight plus not having the spoiler weight added to the trunk.

Thoughts? Opinions? Just something I was wondering when deciding if I wanted a high ltw wing or not.


How about both? Highrise ltw wing and a carbon trunk would be awesome. I love the looks of the highrise.


I don't have that much money, well I do but defiantly not spending all of it there. :mrgreen:

Track or not, just wondering what most people think is better being lighter or adding some weight and having down force.
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Postby veriest1 » Mon Nov 26, 2007 11:26 pm

There are other places to shave wieght for less money. C/F sunroof anyone? :drool

Then you might be able to get the best of both worlds.
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Re: Reducing weight vs down force...

Postby ali » Tue Nov 27, 2007 2:07 am

seeyalaterrr wrote:
Patrón wrote:
seeyalaterrr wrote:I'm referring to say a High Ltw wing to add down force vs getting a Carbon fiber trunk and saving the weight plus not having the spoiler weight added to the trunk.

Thoughts? Opinions? Just something I was wondering when deciding if I wanted a high ltw wing or not.


How about both? Highrise ltw wing and a carbon trunk would be awesome. I love the looks of the highrise.


I don't have that much money, well I do but defiantly not spending all of it there. :mrgreen:

Track or not, just wondering what most people think is better being lighter or adding some weight and having down force.


lighter is great. if you keep balance and traction. SOOOOOOOOOOOOO. You could weigh as much as a CRX, but without grip from your tires, you aren't going anywhere. My philosophy is this. If you are driving fast enough to where you are out driving your car, then get some CFfiber parts and keep the LTW. But I think you should buy some koseis or some nice tires like rt615s and that will make you 10x faster.

No offense to you, but I think in my life I have met like 2 people who were faster than their cars, and they were driving 1.6L honda race cars haha. Keep the LTW, it will help. I am waiting for 94is to join in on this thread. she's the only one I know of with enough track/race days to give a valid opinion.

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Re: Reducing weight vs down force...

Postby Mpwr1 » Thu Nov 29, 2007 10:43 am

ali wrote:
seeyalaterrr wrote:
Patrón wrote:
seeyalaterrr wrote:I'm referring to say a High Ltw wing to add down force vs getting a Carbon fiber trunk and saving the weight plus not having the spoiler weight added to the trunk.

Thoughts? Opinions? Just something I was wondering when deciding if I wanted a high ltw wing or not.


How about both? Highrise ltw wing and a carbon trunk would be awesome. I love the looks of the highrise.


I don't have that much money, well I do but defiantly not spending all of it there. :mrgreen:

Track or not, just wondering what most people think is better being lighter or adding some weight and having down force.


lighter is great. if you keep balance and traction. SOOOOOOOOOOOOO. You could weigh as much as a CRX, but without grip from your tires, you aren't going anywhere. My philosophy is this. If you are driving fast enough to where you are out driving your car, then get some CFfiber parts and keep the LTW. But I think you should buy some koseis or some nice tires like rt615s and that will make you 10x faster.

No offense to you, but I think in my life I have met like 2 people who were faster than their cars, and they were driving 1.6L honda race cars haha. Keep the LTW, it will help. I am waiting for 94is to join in on this thread. she's the only one I know of with enough track/race days to give a valid opinion.

-Ali


Since I am the second oldest one here and have more race/track days than anyone on here(most were on a motorcycle) I will take a stab at it. :mrgreen:

Being that this is a 3k lb car your talking about the wing will only help at really high speeds. At over a 100mph you will gain some stability but create drag as a side effect. I don't think that on a street car it's a very functional item. It's more of a visual thing. On a very light car it becomes more effective.

Weight savings do make for some minor improvements at all speeds except unless you don't properly balance the car. Removing weight is much more desirable than adding downforce in the rear creating drag.
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Re: Reducing weight vs down force...

Postby ali » Thu Nov 29, 2007 11:52 am

Mpwr1 wrote:
ali wrote:
seeyalaterrr wrote:
Patrón wrote:
seeyalaterrr wrote:I'm referring to say a High Ltw wing to add down force vs getting a Carbon fiber trunk and saving the weight plus not having the spoiler weight added to the trunk.

Thoughts? Opinions? Just something I was wondering when deciding if I wanted a high ltw wing or not.


How about both? Highrise ltw wing and a carbon trunk would be awesome. I love the looks of the highrise.


I don't have that much money, well I do but defiantly not spending all of it there. :mrgreen:

Track or not, just wondering what most people think is better being lighter or adding some weight and having down force.


lighter is great. if you keep balance and traction. SOOOOOOOOOOOOO. You could weigh as much as a CRX, but without grip from your tires, you aren't going anywhere. My philosophy is this. If you are driving fast enough to where you are out driving your car, then get some CFfiber parts and keep the LTW. But I think you should buy some koseis or some nice tires like rt615s and that will make you 10x faster.

No offense to you, but I think in my life I have met like 2 people who were faster than their cars, and they were driving 1.6L honda race cars haha. Keep the LTW, it will help. I am waiting for 94is to join in on this thread. she's the only one I know of with enough track/race days to give a valid opinion.

-Ali


Since I am the second oldest one here and have more race/track days than anyone on here(most were on a motorcycle) I will take a stab at it. :mrgreen:

Being that this is a 3k lb car your talking about the wing will only help at really high speeds. At over a 100mph you will gain some stability but create drag as a side effect. I don't think that on a street car it's a very functional item. It's more of a visual thing. On a very light car it becomes more effective.

Weight savings do make for some minor improvements at all speeds except unless you don't properly balance the car. Removing weight is much more desirable than adding downforce in the rear creating drag.


what harold says is true about drag, BUT there is one thing he left out. There is no way of honestly knowing the amount of drag it is causing. If you plan on stripping your car, get a wing to keep you stable, who cares what people say about it. I would much rather have a giant wing on my car then hit 150 and starting getting light in the rear.

nearly every part of your car creates drag too. So that little bit more isn't really going to hurt anything. Especially for a privateer or street car. The only thing you want to be is safe. Being fast is tight, but if you end up in a wall of tires on your first day, you might regret just stripping your car to shit haha.

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Re: Reducing weight vs down force...

Postby Volfinator » Thu Nov 29, 2007 3:21 pm

Mpwr1 wrote:
Since I am the second oldest one here and have more race/track days than anyone on here(most were on a motorcycle) I will take a stab at it. :mrgreen:

Being that this is a 3k lb car your talking about the wing will only help at really high speeds. At over a 100mph you will gain some stability but create drag as a side effect. I don't think that on a street car it's a very functional item. It's more of a visual thing. On a very light car it becomes more effective.

Weight savings do make for some minor improvements at all speeds except unless you don't properly balance the car. Removing weight is much more desirable than adding downforce in the rear creating drag.


Bingo. Well put
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Re: Reducing weight vs down force...

Postby seeyalaterrr » Thu Nov 29, 2007 11:09 pm

Mpwr1 wrote:
ali wrote:
seeyalaterrr wrote:
Patrón wrote:
seeyalaterrr wrote:I'm referring to say a High Ltw wing to add down force vs getting a Carbon fiber trunk and saving the weight plus not having the spoiler weight added to the trunk.

Thoughts? Opinions? Just something I was wondering when deciding if I wanted a high ltw wing or not.


How about both? Highrise ltw wing and a carbon trunk would be awesome. I love the looks of the highrise.


I don't have that much money, well I do but defiantly not spending all of it there. :mrgreen:

Track or not, just wondering what most people think is better being lighter or adding some weight and having down force.


lighter is great. if you keep balance and traction. SOOOOOOOOOOOOO. You could weigh as much as a CRX, but without grip from your tires, you aren't going anywhere. My philosophy is this. If you are driving fast enough to where you are out driving your car, then get some CFfiber parts and keep the LTW. But I think you should buy some koseis or some nice tires like rt615s and that will make you 10x faster.

No offense to you, but I think in my life I have met like 2 people who were faster than their cars, and they were driving 1.6L honda race cars haha. Keep the LTW, it will help. I am waiting for 94is to join in on this thread. she's the only one I know of with enough track/race days to give a valid opinion.

-Ali


Since I am the second oldest one here and have more race/track days than anyone on here(most were on a motorcycle) I will take a stab at it. :mrgreen:

Being that this is a 3k lb car your talking about the wing will only help at really high speeds. At over a 100mph you will gain some stability but create drag as a side effect. I don't think that on a street car it's a very functional item. It's more of a visual thing. On a very light car it becomes more effective.

Weight savings do make for some minor improvements at all speeds except unless you don't properly balance the car. Removing weight is much more desirable than adding downforce in the rear creating drag.




Thanks just the answer I was looking for.
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Re: Reducing weight vs down force...

Postby loonibab///m3 » Thu Nov 29, 2007 11:18 pm

Mpwr1 wrote:
ali wrote:
seeyalaterrr wrote:
Patrón wrote:
seeyalaterrr wrote:I'm referring to say a High Ltw wing to add down force vs getting a Carbon fiber trunk and saving the weight plus not having the spoiler weight added to the trunk.

Thoughts? Opinions? Just something I was wondering when deciding if I wanted a high ltw wing or not.


How about both? Highrise ltw wing and a carbon trunk would be awesome. I love the looks of the highrise.


I don't have that much money, well I do but defiantly not spending all of it there. :mrgreen:

Track or not, just wondering what most people think is better being lighter or adding some weight and having down force.


lighter is great. if you keep balance and traction. SOOOOOOOOOOOOO. You could weigh as much as a CRX, but without grip from your tires, you aren't going anywhere. My philosophy is this. If you are driving fast enough to where you are out driving your car, then get some CFfiber parts and keep the LTW. But I think you should buy some koseis or some nice tires like rt615s and that will make you 10x faster.

No offense to you, but I think in my life I have met like 2 people who were faster than their cars, and they were driving 1.6L honda race cars haha. Keep the LTW, it will help. I am waiting for 94is to join in on this thread. she's the only one I know of with enough track/race days to give a valid opinion.

-Ali


Since I am the second oldest one here and have more race/track days than anyone on here(most were on a motorcycle) I will take a stab at it. :mrgreen:

Being that this is a 3k lb car your talking about the wing will only help at really high speeds. At over a 100mph you will gain some stability but create drag as a side effect. I don't think that on a street car it's a very functional item. It's more of a visual thing. On a very light car it becomes more effective.

Weight savings do make for some minor improvements at all speeds except unless you don't properly balance the car. Removing weight is much more desirable than adding downforce in the rear creating drag.


lol, did you just copy what Ali said and re-word it? haha. Use citations!
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Postby fcvapor05 » Wed Dec 12, 2007 2:12 am

From my standpoint, I would look to lose weight before adding downforce. 2 reasons: 1) It basically is not possible to add downforce without adding drag and 2) adding downforce in the rear won't really make the car stop or accelerate that much faster- you may get some extra cornering speed. Subtracting weight adds cornering speed, acceleration, and braking improvement.
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Re: Reducing weight vs down force...

Postby gotbhp? » Thu Jan 31, 2008 8:49 pm

ali wrote:
Mpwr1 wrote:
ali wrote:
seeyalaterrr wrote:
Patrón wrote:
seeyalaterrr wrote:I'm referring to say a High Ltw wing to add down force vs getting a Carbon fiber trunk and saving the weight plus not having the spoiler weight added to the trunk.

Thoughts? Opinions? Just something I was wondering when deciding if I wanted a high ltw wing or not.


How about both? Highrise ltw wing and a carbon trunk would be awesome. I love the looks of the highrise.


I don't have that much money, well I do but defiantly not spending all of it there. :mrgreen:

Track or not, just wondering what most people think is better being lighter or adding some weight and having down force.


lighter is great. if you keep balance and traction. SOOOOOOOOOOOOO. You could weigh as much as a CRX, but without grip from your tires, you aren't going anywhere. My philosophy is this. If you are driving fast enough to where you are out driving your car, then get some CFfiber parts and keep the LTW. But I think you should buy some koseis or some nice tires like rt615s and that will make you 10x faster.

No offense to you, but I think in my life I have met like 2 people who were faster than their cars, and they were driving 1.6L honda race cars haha. Keep the LTW, it will help. I am waiting for 94is to join in on this thread. she's the only one I know of with enough track/race days to give a valid opinion.

-Ali


Since I am the second oldest one here and have more race/track days than anyone on here(most were on a motorcycle) I will take a stab at it. :mrgreen:

Being that this is a 3k lb car your talking about the wing will only help at really high speeds. At over a 100mph you will gain some stability but create drag as a side effect. I don't think that on a street car it's a very functional item. It's more of a visual thing. On a very light car it becomes more effective.

Weight savings do make for some minor improvements at all speeds except unless you don't properly balance the car. Removing weight is much more desirable than adding downforce in the rear creating drag.


what harold says is true about drag, BUT there is one thing he left out. There is no way of honestly knowing the amount of drag it is causing. If you plan on stripping your car, get a wing to keep you stable, who cares what people say about it. I would much rather have a giant wing on my car then hit 150 and starting getting light in the rear.

nearly every part of your car creates drag too. So that little bit more isn't really going to hurt anything. Especially for a privateer or street car. The only thing you want to be is safe. Being fast is tight, but if you end up in a wall of tires on your first day, you might regret just stripping your car to shit haha.

-Ali


A simple CFD analysis of the wing could tell you its Cd and Cl, someone with access to the right software should be able to do it assuming we could get them the wing's profile.

I'd personally reduce weight before I added wings, mainly because there are more benefits to it other than grip (tire/brake wear etc.).

Another thing to think about is that the rear of the car is *not* where I would want to be shedding pounds on an e36, its much more difficult/exspensive to do that to the front of the car.
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Reducing weight vs. downforce...

Postby rlogan » Mon Mar 01, 2010 7:58 pm

Don't do a big rear wing unless you do splitter up front; but, on the street its not going to matter either way. Aero starts to take effect above 80 mph. Like everyone says, balance is key. Always add downforce at the front first othewise you'll enduce understeer/push. I have spent the last five years trying to make a brick go fast on track...HP only goes so far, downforce (in reality more appropriate is negating lift) is very important. Lighter is always better especially for keeping consumable costs(brakes, tires, bearings) down.
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Re: Reducing weight vs. downforce...

Postby Tarmac_E36_M3 » Fri Jul 15, 2011 10:19 pm

Lightweight FTW....

Looking to drop a few lbs... To a few 100 lbs off the car in the next couple years. :D
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